Announcement [FRP Revamp] - Death Discussion

Which Option do you prefer?

  • Option 1

  • Option 2

  • Option 3

  • Option 4


Results are only viewable after voting.

Dimitri

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Don’t trust the players with pk on first death, it’s so stupid lol, imagine 2 goons roll up on your nations square and just kill 10 people there! Has happened before! Well those 10 people have now all lost their beloved character and leave the server! Good job!

keeping it as it is, is in my opinion the best choice here, just add the idea of sukitoru or something, changing the way deaths work is kinda silly in my opinion as you could just kill someone over and over again and then their lives are gone! :) how fun.
wait did you even read the proposed system or are you just trolling
 

AGiantPie

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I see several problems with the practical implementation of this system:

1) This requires a lot of discretion on the part of staff to rule whether a player "intentionally" placed themselves in harms way or not. I see extreme potential for bias and unfair treatment here. The RP examples cited are really bad examples, in my opinion, as they illustrate that problem perfectly. The difference between player C and player B is entirely up to the subjective determination of the ruling moderator. The same scenario could be described as player B or player C depending on how you re-tell the situation to someone else. Both fought back against bandits, but player C doesn't count as losing a life because it was "merely an attempt at life"?

Also, the introduction to the rule says "Whether or not players die should not be decided based on any subjective standpoint such as a player’s karma, or morality, and rather on the circumstances of their death." But the "Circumstances" of the character's death (which are subjective anyways, but I digress) are not actually what is considered by the moderator that makes the ruling. Let's look at the rule: ""Did the player intentionally place themselves in harm’s way or take actions that would lead to their death, be it in the scenario in which they died or prior, within reason?" " What matters is the player's intent, which is 100% obviously subjective.

2) Related to the above, it's really unclear to a player where the line is that determines whether you're "intentionally" endangering yourself or not. Players could take actions they think will not lead to a PK, only to be told later that they will have to PK and become very upset. Rules and systems need to be understandable by everyone, including people who are new to RP. If your system is too complicated for 14-15 year old first-time RPers, that's a serious problem. I think that in practice this system will be wielded as a weapon to "Punish" players that are seen as bad or new to RP, whereas well-known and established players will manage to argue their way out of PK rulings all the time. Penalizing noobs for not knowing the subtle complexities of the death system sounds like a great way to make sure no one ever joins the server.

3) Every single RP death requires a subjective judgement from the mod team. This not only adds to the staff workload, it also opens the staff up to toxicity. Do the mods really have the guts to sit there and decide that a character is PKed because they acted too fearless when confronting bandits? Do the mods have the guts to enforce that decision if the player and their entire friend group starts acting toxic to them? Do the mods have the guts to enforce that decision if people quit the server over a PK they consider unfair? Do the mods have the guts to enforce that decision on a player and character that are well-liked by the community? These situations will happen with this system. I don't even think I would have the guts to enforce this decision on players consistently, and I was a founder.

4) Every time you get killed in RP you have to make a modreq and sit there in the spawn waiting for a moderator to come bestow judgement upon your case. Not only will this waste people's time, it will also suck the fun out of RP. Granted, since players can let their victims skip PKs to begin with, I guess most of the time a PK is going to happen the moderator will be summoned before people die anyways.

5) If we go for the "3 lives" option, who is going to keep track of the lives that a given character has remaining? Is it going to be tied to the character's soul in the plugin? I guess since this is a trial run it won't use a plugin until it's made permanent. But tracking persona deaths manually is a logistical nightmare.

6) In the "raid" scenario presented in the rules, player D is PKed because they engaged in some prior "religious offense," and that therefore counts as "intentionally placing themselves in harms way or took actions that lead to their death." Is there a statute of limitations on prior offenses? Can someone offended by player D's actions PK him 2 irl years later?

7) If we go for the "3 lives" version, and "prior offenses" count as a PK reason, can I kill someone 3 times for the same offense they committed against me to PK them for real instead of just taking one of their lives?

8) In some situations, as illustrated by the first bandit robbery scenario, one party (bandits) can be PKed in the combat while the other party (player C) cannot. But in PVP scenarios, it seems that either both parties can be PKed or neither party can be PKed.

9) Situations where someone could get PKed if they die are bound to go very toxic, because no one wants to get PKed, and so almost every RP fight will now need to be watched by a moderator.

10) It's mentioned that bad villainy/gooning behavior would need to be held to a higher standard and villains will be moderated more aggressively. My question is, why is bad villainy being tolerated already? Can't we start moderating villainy more harshly now instead of waiting for this rule change to go in place? Since the system would fall apart if villainy is not appropriately moderated, should we not make sure that villainy is in a good place before implementing this system?


~


In addition, I have some issues with the types of RP that this system incentivizes:

1) PVP never causes you to lose a life unless you agree to it. So this system only penalizes people who prefer to roleplay, while letting PVP bandits and nations terrorize whoever they want without restraint. Also, if you get attacked by bandits, you can choose to PVP instead of RP the fight in order to get out of the consequences of death. Player B is being a real dummy by not calling PVP!

2) This system punishes people for caring about their characters and their roleplay, which is ironic since its supposed to enforce higher quality roleplay. The problem is that people who do low-quality roleplay and play cookie-cutter self-insert characters do not care about getting their character PKed nearly as much as people who put a lot of time and effort into their characters. If my bandit persona gets PKed I can just create a brand new identical (or nearly identical) bandit persona. PKing is only a punishment to people who play characters that can't just be immediately replicated.

3) Players PKing each other is a toxicity nightmare. Anyone who gets PKed will have a vendetta against the player who PKed them, especially since players can choose to not have their victims get PKed. This system will create more OOC conflict and strife between the playerbase. PKs will also be used as a way to punish players you don't like, and the aggressors trying to goad someone into getting PKed will probably use throwaway personas so they are risking nothing.

4) The server is suffering from a lack of things to do and a lack of events. This system makes doing ANYTHING more dangerous, and encourages people to sit at home in their nation or not even log on to avoid being in dangerous situations where they could get PKed. Punishing people for playing the game is a bad idea. Ditto since ETs will be held to a "higher standard," aka there will be less ETs, less events.

5) PKs are not created equal because there will be various forms of immortality or ways around the PK system, as stated in the post. These will, naturally, only be available to certain characters that have made special achievements. Noobs and players who don't play the OOC/lore space won't get access to these abilities and will therefore be punished more harshly by PKs.

6) The 3-lives version of this system is really gamey and doesn't solve the problem of resurrection being bad for the story, it just limits the amount of bad-storyness that one character can have. (But only if they're an rper! If they're a PVPer they can die 100000 times!)


~


Here's my thoughts on what to do with death rules on FRP:

Death rules (like all rules) should remember: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. If we don't want people to respawn infinitely, don't have respawns and instead make it so you can't just murder people whenever you want. Any PK situations should be known about ahead of time (events, duels, executions for specific crimes, wargoals, etc), and otherwise you can't murder people. Simple. The losers with this system would be combat players, bandits, villains, etc, who want the ability to kill with impunity. Some other system would work too, as long as its simple. We originally went with freedom to kill and sacrificed the rp importance of death to allow it.

Honestly, I think combat players are the ones most responsible for death being considered irrelevant in the story. When players kill each other over the tiniest of RP offenses, what system can you have except for respawns? The system proposed in the above post tries to give players the freedom to kill whomever they want, while also making death important and impactful. You can't have your cake and eat it too, in my opinion. Freedom to kill whenever you want is simply incompatible with people being expected to PK to RP deaths.

Either way, I think the "making rules about death to solve bad RP" approach is missing the forest for the trees. Any time players are killing each other it's going to lead to toxicity, bad experiences, and probably bad RP. Doubly so if PKs are involved. You can't write rules to make bad RPers into good RPers. I think re-orienting the server towards a cooperative instead of competitive culture and playstyle would alleviate a lot of issues, death-related and otherwise. Writing PK rules for PVE content is trivial. Writing PK rules for PVP content is impossible.


~


TL;DR - This system is open for rampant abuses. I would not even trust myself to be a fair moderator in moderating this system, and I definitely don't trust anyone else. This system encourages low quality RP in my opinion, NOT high quality RP. (You should always call PVP to avoid having to PK). Finally, this system is really complicated and subjective and hard to understand. Even expert RPers would disagree on who deserves a PK in some situations; noobs would be completely helpless.
 
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2) This system punishes people for caring about their characters and their roleplay, which is ironic since its supposed to enforce higher quality roleplay. The problem is that people who do low-quality roleplay and play cookie-cutter self-insert characters do not care about getting their character PKed nearly as much as people who put a lot of time and effort into their characters. If my bandit persona gets PKed I can just create a brand new identical (or nearly identical) bandit persona. PKing is only a punishment to people who play characters that can't just be immediately replicated.
Pie is completely fricking right here, you can’t ask of people who put hundreds of hours in their character to pk so easily to a bandit attack. It’s actually goofy ahh.

Either way, I think the making rules about death to solve bad RP approach is missing the forest for the trees. Any time players are killing each other it's going to lead to toxicity, bad experiences, and probably bad RP. Doubly so if PKs are involved. You can't write rules to make bad RPers into good RPers. I think re-orienting the server towards a cooperative instead of competitive culture and playstyle would alleviate a lot of issues, death-related and otherwise. Writing PK rules for PVE content is trivial. Writing PK rules for PVP content is impossible.
I think cooperative culture would be so much better for frp
 

laze

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Pie is completely fricking right here, you can’t ask of people who put hundreds of hours in their character to pk so easily to a bandit attack. It’s actually goofy ahh.


I think cooperative culture would be so much better for frp
I agree with nootpoot over here
 
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We tried cooperative play and it aided in the server stagnating. Certain people just don't want to let go of their precious pixels. Either they don't know how to let go or don't want change. This ruins any kind of progressive narrative. Death is natural and a normal part of any story. Without it, nothing can properly change or progress. As such people will, and have, left to find a new experience because they simply can't get that new experience in a server full of immortal characters that never die, can't killed or deposed.

Right now death, hell even immortality, are pointless. Everyone can't die, and everyone is immortal. What is the point in playing if everyone is a god.

So let's just do away with complicated death systems and just have one life only. No system will allow for fair play or progressive play, so why have any system at all? Death is death.
Of course it can be abused. Our current system has been abused. Any system can and will be abused. Frankly I'd rather see the server have a chance to stay lively with fresh content rather than full of old characters still alive because their players refused to let them die when they died, or were meant to die.

By all means we can allow for the possibility of resurrection through role play. I've brought up my own ideas on the matter, and Pyrias has reiterated them here in this thread to some degree. This would allow for more actual role play around death. It would give characters a solid reason for still being alive.

Mark my words: this server is dead unless it can accept death and mortality.
If a character can walk away from a problem (by just dying and living forever with zero effort in this case), then there is no story. If there is no story, there will be no players.
 

AdventureApollo

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We tried cooperative play and it aided in the server stagnating. Certain people just don't want to let go of their precious pixels. Either they don't know how to let go or don't want change. This ruins any kind of progressive narrative. Death is natural and a normal part of any story. Without it, nothing can properly change or progress. As such people will, and have, left to find a new experience because they simply can't get that new experience in a server full of immortal characters that never die, can't killed or deposed.

Right now death, hell even immortality, are pointless. Everyone can't die, and everyone is immortal. What is the point in playing if everyone is a god.

So let's just do away with complicated death systems and just have one life only. No system will allow for fair play or progressive play, so why have any system at all? Death is death.
Of course it can be abused. Our current system has been abused. Any system can and will be abused. Frankly I'd rather see the server have a chance to stay lively with fresh content rather than full of old characters still alive because their players refused to let them die when they died, or were meant to die.

By all means we can allow for the possibility of resurrection through role play. I've brought up my own ideas on the matter, and Pyrias has reiterated them here in this thread to some degree. This would allow for more actual role play around death. It would give characters a solid reason for still being alive.

Mark my words: this server is dead unless it can accept death and mortality.
If a character can walk away from a problem (by just dying and living forever with zero effort in this case), then there is no story. If there is no story, there will be no players.
this is just a player issue.
If a player cannot adjust their mindset (which they won't do within the current environment of the server), then they'll just leave if their character is PK'd on first death. One of the handful of good things that Calendale's OOC culture propelled to the rest of the playerbase was a feeling of pressure to PK when needed- not just clicking revive. That pressure is no longer with us, as nations see no issue with their players undergoing constant revives.

I can assure you that if the server staff gave up on revival and implemented a catch-all rule with a single death, there would be at least 3 succession crisisses within the first week. CRP goons will find high-value figures while they're logging on tired and by themselves, then just murder them while they're unable to properly protect themselves. (And don't bring up new rules being put in place, there's enough red tape already and there would always be ways to skirt around them)
 
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So let's just do away with complicated death systems and just have one life only.
Already on my way to utterly kill Grimmwalds player base in a single early morning so you guys can’t rally and I get to kill 5 of your players who will be demotivated and then leave the server.

ONE LIFE IS JUST NOT THE WAY TO GO.
 

Pinks__

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If we go with option three, I hope to see banditry and conflict changed as well, bc I'm not gonna even bother making a soul just for it to be killed by someone who thinks it's funny to do that kind of stuff lol.

Remember the jindles? my trust issues go back to that, those guys killed me three times in one ooc day, Even if that isn't going to happen, the option is there for them to do it. And no offense to the staff here by saying this, but if yall cant enforce ppl pking the souls they had since day one, yall cant enforce people doing that kind of stuff either.

The question I have as well is, how exactly are staff going to keep track on how many deaths someone has had? Its not like you can watched everyone at the same time? do you guys plan to have more rules put in place to have staff moderate player vs player conflict? Or is this going to be strictly honor-based?

My opinion though mulling it over for a while, would be to leave things how they are, as I feel it would be incredibly difficult to moderate that, I also feel it would have an incredible impact on our current player base rn as well
 
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Jordankeeper

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Here's a crazy proposal that some might find hilarious..

Maybe have it that random bandit attacks lead into just a KO rather a kill? Looting is no issue as you can still loot an unconscious individual.. but have murder be tied to deeper meanings rather just a goon on a blood craze, may it be personal grudges, political assassinations, etc.
 
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Here's a crazy proposal that some might find hilarious..

Maybe have it that random bandit attacks lead into just a KO rather a kill? Looting is no issue as you can still loot an unconscious individual.. but have murder be tied to deeper meanings rather just a goon on a blood craze, may it be personal grudges, political assassinations, etc.
yeah thats a lil silly
 

Darken

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If we go with option three, I hope to see banditry and conflict changed as well, bc I'm not gonna even bother making a soul just for it to be killed by someone who thinks it's funny to do that kind of stuff lol.

Remember the jindles? my trust issues go back to that, those guys killed me three times in one ooc day, Even if that isn't going to happen, the option is there for them to do it. And no offense to the staff here by saying this, but if yall cant enforce ppl pking the souls they had since day one, yall cant enforce people doing that kind of stuff either.

The question I have as well is, how exactly are staff going to keep track on how many deaths someone has had? Its not like you can watched everyone at the same time? do you guys plan to have more rules put in place to have staff moderate player vs player conflict? Or is this going to be strictly honor-based?

My opinion though mulling it over for a while, would be to leave things how they are, as I feel it would be incredibly difficult to moderate that, I also feel it would have an incredible impact on our current player base rn as well
The Jindles put a horrible reputation on the Bandits/Villains of the server, I was also a part of their group for instance. The excessive banditry definitely set a bad name for each and every bandit which led to most bandits leaving after.

One life is the most optimal choice, I don't care if you don't want to lose your pixels: There should definitely be limits to getting PKed, but if you insist on not losing your months or years old characters because you're attached to them then you bring no good to the storyline of the server

I PKed six characters in total in my FRP adventure. I was disappointed to PK most of them, but moved on, because I want to bring a lot to the storyline.

Three lifes is so scuffed, as Pie stated, would a plugin be set in place to decide how many lives a player has? Would the number of lives be changed automatically which puts harsher consequences to POPing players OOCly, or would the moderators change it after subjectively choosing whether that character truly deserved to die?

Change the rules, but don't put more red tape to bandits. There are LITERALLY no bandits left, I stopped banditing because it's simply pointless with the ridiculous red tape.

Here's a crazy proposal that some might find hilarious..

Maybe have it that random bandit attacks lead into just a KO rather a kill? Looting is no issue as you can still loot an unconscious individual.. but have murder be tied to deeper meanings rather just a goon on a blood craze, may it be personal grudges, political assassinations, etc.
I find it hilarious, yes, because it makes no sense for bandits to leave someone of no great status alive after robbing them in broad daylight. It might put pressure on their characters, specifically if they were seen without a helmet, hood, etc.

As you said, murder should be tied to deeper reasons, but instead replace that keyword with PK.

I don't even understand why we are so concerned about bandits if all of them quit or got banned a long time ago.
 

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Dw guys, we got 'em.

Death system fixed. Easy
@Dylann I love you <3
Lemmie post a nation forum!!

( Wonder how many hrs it will take woot to put /me laughs under it)
how does this work? i applied but the server still has not whitelisted me
spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider spider
I'd make a snarky comment about how there's various comments about how inactive the forums were, but that would imply activity.
Whoa, whoa! Everyone gotta stop posting so much stuff on the forums, I can’t keep up

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